CEV Magnetos

July 16, 2014

WelcoCEVme.  Most European-made mopeds have high quality C.E.V. electrical components, made in Italy since the 1920’s by Fratelli Pagani (Pagani Brothers). C.E.V. is a trade mark that stands for Costruzioni Elettromeccaniche Venegonesi. English translation: Constructions Electromechanical of the Venegonese people (from Venegono, Province of Varese, Northern Italy). CEV is now part of ZADI.

 

 

CEV Points can be either "Left" or "Right". CEV Left hand M18 is for clockwise rotation CEV Right hand M14 is for counter clockwise

CEV Points can be either “Left” or “Right”.
CEV Left hand M18 is for clockwise rotation
CEV Right hand M14 is for counter clockwise

CEV Magnetos:

CEV made several moped magnetos 80 and 90mm.

80mm CEV Magnetos
CEV 6932 Minarelli V1 1-spd engine
       clockwise, M19x1 puller, M8 nut, M3.0 key
CEV 6933 Garelli 1-speed horizontal cylinder
                 Demm 1-speed engine
anti-clockwise, M19x1 puller, M8 nut, M2.0 key
CEV 6939 Garelli 2-speed vertical cylinder
       clockwise, M19x1 puller, M10 nut, M2.5 key
CEV 6949 KTM with Sachs 504 1-spd eng
anti-clockwise, M22×1.5 puller, M8 nut, M2.0 key
CEV 6952 Rizzato Califfo 1-speed engine
anti-clockwise, M19x1 puller, M8 nut, M2.5 key

CEV 6932 Magneto 80mm

CEV 6932  red=ign(hot), blue=ign-gnd, black=lites

90mm CEV Magnetos
CEV 6951 Tomos A3 2-speed late 1980’s
anti-clockwise, M26×1.5 puller, M10 nut, M3.0 key
CEV 04347 Ign Coil

CEV 04307

CEV 03408 Lighting Coil

CEV 04308

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CEV magneto parts00 06932 N/A magneto complete CEV 6932
00 00000 used on Minarelli

01 04212 $90 flywheel (rotor) for 6932
02 13061 $01 M4 small-head screw for points & cond.
03 13494 $01 M4 lockwasher for screw
04 04221 $18 points M18 (left hand) for 6932
05 07365 $18 condenser for CEV, Dansi, Ducati
06 13514 $01 coil screw & lockwasher
07 13448 $02 lubrication felt
08 04307 $80 ignition coil for 6932 blue & copper
09 04308 $30 lighting armature for 6932 black wire
10 13471 N/A stator plate bare says CEV 13471
11 04266 N/A stator complete 6932 red, blue, black

00

CEV 6933 Stator

CEV 6933 Stator
Garelli 1-speed
black = ignition
blue = ign ground
yellow = lights

00 06933 N/A magneto complete CEV 6933
00 00000 used on Demm, Garelli 1-sp horiz cyl, Garelli Monza

01 04271 $90 flywheel (rotor) for 6933
02 13061 $01 M4 small-head screw for points & cond.
03 13494 $01 M4 lockwasher for screw
04 04229 $18 points M18 (left hand) for 6933
05 07365 $18 condenser for CEV, Dansi, Ducati
06 13514 $01 coil screw & lockwasher
07 13448 $02 lubrication felt
08 04287 $80 ignition coil for 6933 blue & copper
09 04288 $30 lighting armature for 6933 yellow wire
10 13471 N/A stator plate bare says CEV 13471
11 04272 N/A stator complete 6933 black, blue, yellow

 

CEV 6939 is for Garelli with the vertical cylinder two-speed. It’s a clockwise 80m, like the 6932, but it has a bigger cone center hole, for a 10mm nut, not 8 or 9. The cam is the same outer dimensions, so there is less thickness and strength. Because of this, Garelli two-speed flywheels crack at the key groove in the cam, when the nut is over tightened. So the CEV 6939 flywheel is scarce. The 6939 has a large style base plate, not the small style 13471 plate used on other CEV 80mm magnetos. The stator plate mounting screws are outside of the coils/armatures, so there is room for many different mounting slots/options.  The 2000-2003 Avanti mopeds had a pretty good Garelli VIP 2-speed remake engine, with a modern CDI magneto. Those would replace a CEV 6939, if you changed the complete points ignition system (stator with points, rotor, outside coil) to an Avanti complete CDI ignition system (stator , rotor, outside CDI unit, outside CDI type coil).  There are likely some aftermarket ones, since the large plate with lots of long slots can fit in many ways. More on this later…

 CEV 6949 is for KTM Foxi with a Sachs 504 one speed engine. It’s anticlockwise like the 6933 but has a different timing angle. 

 

CEV 6951 Magneto

CEV 6951 Magneto
for late 80’s Tomos A3
90mm, looks like Bosch
black = ignition
blue = ign ground
yellow = lights

CEV 6951 Magneto 90mm 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

00 06951 N/A magneto complete CEV 6951
00 00000 000 for late 1980’s Tomos A3
01 04351 N/A flywheel (rotor) for 6951
02 13061 $01 M4 small-head screw for points & cond
03 13494 $01 M4 lockwasher for screw
04 04229 $18 points M14 (right hand) for 6933
05 07365 $18 condenser
06 12192 N/A lubrication felt
07 13125 N/A felt holder
08 13514 N/A screw for coils
09 04359 N/A ignition source coil
10 04360 N/A lighting source coil
11 13085 N/A base plate bare
12 04358 N/A base plate complete

 

 

 

 

 


Dansi Magnetos

July 16, 2014

Dansi

Dansi bicycle generator

Dansi 1930’s bicycle generator-light

Armando Dansi and his company made bicycle generators and lights in Varese, Italy, since the 1930’s. 

Dansi magneto generators (power dynamos) were on 1950’s to 1970’s Italian small motorcycles and mopeds, such as Aermacchi, Benelli, Cagiva, Fantic, Italjet, Lambretta (Innocenti), Lem, Malanca, Rizzato, Zannetti, and non-Italian mopeds such as NSU Quickly.

On US model Italian mini-motorcycles 1965 to 1980, Dansi magnetos were original on engine models Benelli, Morini S5K2, and others.

On US-model mopeds from 1975 to 1985, Dansi magnetos were on Morini MO, MO1, MO2, MO4-B and some M1 engines.

 


Dansi Magnetos on Morini MO, MO1, MO2, MO4-B, some M1
101286 (internal ground), 101765, 101732 (external ground)

There are two types of Dansi magnetos for 1975-85 pedal mopeds with Morini engines and with brake lights.

The US DOT required that mopeds must have brake lights, and that the headlight must not get dim when the brake light is on. One solution was to power the brake light from the ignition ground. This gives a brighter head light, but the engine can loose spark if the brake light wires become loose. The other solution was to power both head and brake light from the same coil, by making a center-tap ground, so there are two concentric coils with one core. This makes the headlight always dimmer, but the engine never looses spark because of the lights.

Some moped brands used only one type. Most brands used either type. That created confusion.

To make matters worse, most US moped brands with Morini engines did not explain the brake light wiring, because their manuals were originally written for European models that did not have brake lights. Many of the parts lists have omissions or mistakes, because the equipment (magneto and brake light) was changed late, to meet US laws, after the manuals were translated and printed.

Because of this, no one can say what all the wires are, on most US-model mopeds with a Morini engine, just from the make, model, and year, without knowing what the Dansi number is on the flywheel.

Below is a photo mosaic comparing the two types of Dansi magnetos for mopeds. The left half is 101765 “external ignition ground” type. The right half is 101286 “internal ignition ground” type.

Dansi Magneto 101286 and 101765

Dansi moped magnetos 101765 and 101286 comparison

 

Notes:

On a moped with a Morini engine, the number on the Dansi flywheel tells 1) what magneto it has, external (101765 or 101732) or internal (101286) ignition ground, 2) what brake light wiring the bike has, series brake light switches (9342 normally closed) in parallel with the light for 101765 or 101732, or parallel brake light switches (9343 normally open) in series with the light for 101286, 3) what CEV 9530 tail light version it has, one with a brake light resistor hidden inside (101765 or 101732), or with no resistor (101286).

This matters a lot when troubleshooting a bike that has no spark. Bikes with external ignition ground often loose spark because of a loose brake light wire. On those you always ground (connect to the frame) the green magneto wire first, and then re-check for spark. That way you will know if the problem is external, in the bikes wires and lights, or internal in the magneto, such as dirty points.

 

D A N S I
MAGNETO
PARTS
101286
MMI #
Price
101286
Specification
101765
MMI #
Price
101765
Specification
101732
MMI #
102362
MMI #
magneto complete 29-0034
$270
29-0045
$300
29-0063
flywheel (rotor) M26
$130
80mm id
anti-clockwise
M26A (M29)
$150
80mm id
anti-clockwise
same
stator complete M45
$190
I N T E R N A L
ignition ground
M45A
$200
E X T E R N A L
ignition ground
same
stator plate bare M44
N/A
2-screw 65mm
9 and 3 o'clock
M44A
N/A
2-screw 65mm
9 and 3 o'clock
same
stator plate screw (2) 29-6022
$0.50
M4 x 12 same same same
points M14
$18
CEV "right hand" same same same
condenser M17
$18
0.025-0.29μf
Ø18 x 22mm
same same same
ignition source coil
on top
M20
$75
47 holes x 12 x 72
1 condenser wire
M27
N/A
47 holes x 14 x 72
1 long green wire
1 condenser wire
lights source coil
on bottom
M21
$65
47 holes x 15 x 72
1 long green wire
1 long black wire
M28
$65
47 holes x 15 x 72
1 long black wire
felt wick

points screw M15
$0.50
M4 x 8 same same same
points screw washer M16
$0.25
Ø4 x 9 x 1 same same same
ignition coil screw (2)
$0.50
M4 x 20 M25
M4 x 25 same
light coil screw (2) M25
$0.50
M4 x 25 same same same
coil screw washer (4)
$0.25
Ø4 x 7 x 0.5 same same same

 

M20 ignition coil for Dansi 101286

M20 ignition coil
for Dansi 101286

M21 lighting coil for Dansi 101286

M21 lighting coil
for Dansi 101286

M27 ignition coil for Dansi 101765

M27 ignition coil
for Dansi 101765

M27 ignition coil for Dansi 101765

M28 lighting coil
for Dansi 101765

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dansi Ignition Coil

Dansi Spark Coil

Notes

M27 coil: Because the service manuals did not mention the “external ignition ground” troubleshooting procedure, where you ground the green wire to get spark, many people have replaced the coils, both the internal M27 ignition source coil and the external spark coil (transformer), when they did not need them. As a result, the supply of M27 source coils has ran out.  

M44 plate: The M44 stator plate bare (for 101286) and the M44A (for 101765) have different part numbers and different felt wipers, but they do interchange. The M44A has no cut-out for a internal transformer spark coil, and so is a later design. The M44A is made stronger.  

 

Dansi Magneto Source Coil Substitution

Here are the bolt hole (4mm) spacings for various moped source coils.

Dansi stator with Bosch ignition source coil

Left, Dansi (1975-1980 Morini MO-1) stator
 Lower generator coil is lights, upper coil is ignition.
Right, with Bosch (Trac M56) ignition source coil

47   Ø79 Motoplat
47   Ø80 Dansi
47   Ø80 Bosch
48   Ø80 CEV
48   Ø89 Motobecane
50   unknown
54   Ø90 Bosch
55   Ø95 Peugeot
57   Ø90 Ducati

From this list, there are three moped source /generator coils (in Myrons Mopeds inventory) with 47mm hole spacing: Ø80 Dansi, Ø80 Bosch, and Ø79 Motoplat.

Dansi and Bosch source coil comparison

Dansi and Bosch source coils, edge to hole

 

So an ignition source coil from a Batavus or Trac M56 would “drop right in” and fit perfectly. But the edge is farther farther from the flywheel magnet. So the spark would not be as strong. It would be OK going fast, but when idling it might loose spark. The spark plug gap could be reduced to compensate.

 

In the photo, the distance is measured, from edge of the 4.0mm hole to the edge of the steel plates. Dansi is 5.3mm, and Bosch is 3.9mm. You can see the difference is 5.3 – 3.9 = 1.4  The Bosch substitute is 1.4mm farther away from the moving magnets.

 

 

 


Dansi Magnetos on Benelli Bobo/Blazer, G2, Moto Guzzi Chiu/Robin
?????? (internal ground, internal spark coil)
101441 (internal ground, external spark coil)
101813 (external ground, external spark coil)

The late 1970’s Dansi steel magneto flywheels for Benelli look like the late 1970’s Morini ones, but the rotation is opposite, clockwise and the stator plate is very different. The stator plate has 5 slots, not two. Unlike the Morini kinds, the upper coil is lights and lower is ignition. The ignition coil has an external ground, the green wire. It must always be grounded in order to have spark. The green wire powers the brake light. Normally the brake light switches are closed, taking all the electricity from the brake light. Opening either brake light switch causes the brake light to go on, opposite to all normal light switches. Normal light switches close to make the light go on. Think of it like turning off your shower, by turning on the garden hose.

Dansi 101813 magneto on 1979 Benelli G2

Dansi 101813 magneto, external ignition ground, on 1979 Benelli G2

1979 Benelli G2 ignition source coil damaged

79 Benelli G2, Dansi 101813
 lighting coil is damaged

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dansi 101813 on Moto Guzzi Robin

Dansi 101813 on Moto Guzzi Robin (USA model)
Note how the case is for the older bigger flywheel.
This has a performance cylinder, intake, exhaust.

 

The Benelli Blazer was the USA version of the Benelli Bobo.

The Moto Guzzi Robin (sheet frame) was the USA version of the Moto Guzzi Chiu.

The Moto Guzzi Robin (monotube frame) was the same as the Benelli G2.

All of these have the same Benelli 0ne speed automatic engine with pedals.

The stator plate has two upper mount screws and one lower. The upper lighting coil is notched for the screw installation. The lower ignition coil is not notched.

 

 

Dansi 101441 on Moto Guzzi Robin (USA model)

The Moto Guzzi Robin with stamped sheet-metal frame had either a Dansi 101813 external ignition ground magneto, or a Dansi 101441 internal ignition ground magneto. The orange one above with 101813 had normally closed brake light switches connected in series, so the brake light was normally shorted out, until either switch was opened. If the green wire became disconnected, like when the brake light wires were unplugged, the engine would not run. The blue one at left with 101441 had normally open brake light switches connected in parallel, so the brake light did not get power until either switch was closed. If the green wire became disconnect, the engine would still run.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Benelli G2, Blazer, Bobo mopeds, and mini-bikes magnetos

Benelli G2, Blazer, Bobo mopeds, and mini-bikes magnetos

Moto Guzzi Chiu (Euro model)

Moto Guzzi Chiu (Euro model)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

     Benelli Dynamo   Bobo/G2  Blazer/Bobo     Benelli G2  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    Moto Guzzi Chiu
  #   1960’s-70’s     pre-1977 #     post-1977 #    post-1977  alternate#    description            (Euro model)
100  G314  ASL204NS xxx N14  48.71.24.90  71.71.24.25  xxxxxxxx  magneto complete x   48.71.24.71
101  G7096  xxxxxx   G7096/1  —- same —-  14.71.74.00   G7096/1  spark plug cap xxxx   45.71.74.00
102  G221/1  xxxxx   SD462/3  —- same —-  69.70.22.07  xxxxxxxx  stator plate xxxxxxx
103  G221/11  xxxx   G221/11  —- same —-  40.70.95.70   G221/11  felt greaser xxxxxxx   —- same —-
104  G221/3  xxxxx xx G221/3  —- same —-  35.70.79.00  x G221/3  screw xxxxxxxxxxxx   —- same —-
105  G221/6  xxxxx xx G221/6  —- same —-  35.70.86.00  x G221/6  condenser xxxxxxxxx   48.70.86.70
106  G/xxx  xxxxxx  xxx N14/B  —- none —-  —- none —-   xxxxxxxx  spark & source coil x   48.71.50.70
106  G221/2  xxxxx  x G221/?  48.71.50.90  71.71.50.25  xxxxxxxx  ignition source coil x
107  G221/4  xxxxx  x G221/?  —- same —-  48.70.88.70  xxxxxxxx  points xxxxxxxxxxxx   —- same —-
108  G314/A  xxxxx  xx N14/C  48.71.51.90  71.71.51.25  xxxxxxxx  lights coil xxxxxxxxx   48.71.51.70
109  G221/8  xxxxx x G221/8  —- same —-  70.71.89.20  x G221/8  washer xxxxxxxxxxx   —- same —-
110  G221/7  xxxxx x G221/7  —- same —-  35.71.57.50  x G221/7  screw xxxxxxxxxxxx   —- same —-
111  G221/10  xxxx  xx N14/A  48.71.16.81  71.71.21.25   xxxxxxxx  flywheel rotor xxxxx
112  G221/5  xxxxx   SD404/1  —- same —-  48.71.57.70   SD404/1  screws and washers   —- same —-
113  G/xxx  xxxxxx   xxxxxxxx   000.000.0.000  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  stator plate screw   98.20.04.10

 

What this table of part numbers tells us, is what things are the same, on different moped models, and what things are different. It does not say how they are different, only that they have different part numbers.

 

Benelli G2 Service Manual image of Dansi 101813

Benelli G2 Service Manual
image of Dansi 101???

From the Benelli G2 Workshop Manual:
A is the greasing felt, lube every 3000 mi.
B is points gap, should be 0.016 inch
C is points securing screw
D is points adjustment slot
E is stator plate screws (3)

This shows the fine windings of the 25 watt lighting coil, and the layout (lighting coil at 11 0’clock and ignition coil at 5 o’clock). This suggests that 1977-78 Benelli G2 had 25 watt lighting coil (plus 10 for brake light), with thin windings, Dansi 101??? magneto.

But the photo above shows the 1979-80 Benelli G2 had thicker windings, Dansi 101813 magneto. Since the lights were the same, the watts had to be the same, 25 watt lighting coil plus 10 watts borrowed from the ignition source coil, for a total of 35 watts of 6V AC lighting power.